Harvey, This is terrific information. Bruce, you should post this on the
site.

Here are some other notes:

Bob was in his early 20s when he designed the Tayana 37. So, if the Valiant
pre-dates that, was he in his teens? I only had one thing on my mind when I
was in my teens/early twenties. I'll let you figure that out.

There was a discussion on the CSBB about the Union 36. Bob made it very
clear there was some bad blood between him and Hans Christian (builders of
the Union 36).

Bob has also mentioned a little about his relationship with CT. He was asked
about the CT 65 (or 72) and his comment was, "that's quite a story."

He's writing a book and, according to him, will be available next year.
We're all looking forward to that!

There are, of course, other interesting canoe sterned (Moses boats - you
made that up Rick) vessels out there. The concept is commonly referred to as
a 'Colin Archer' type. He got his inspiration from Nordic fishing boats.
According to William Garden, the basic shape hasn't changed for a thousand
years. After owning a Baba, I've discovered there are many similar designs
out there:

Bull Frog - William Garden
Teakbird - William Garden
Mink - William Atkin
Eric - William Atkin
Vilasar - William Atkin
Clione - William Atkin
Maytime - William Atkin
Vixen - William Atkin
Erin - William Atkin
Syltu - William Atkin
Ingrid - William Atkin
Fram - William Atkin
Gundred - William Atkin
Little Ranger - William Atkin
Westsail 32 - William Atkin

Just to name a handful. There are more, of course, by Crealock and Perry and
others. In fact, I once came across a boat called a Dana 34 that was
designed by Perry and built somewhere in the U.S.

By the way, for some great reading about boats, pick up William Garden's
books.

Rick Beddoe
s/v Soñadora, 1978 Baba 30
Minneapolis, MN
http://sail2live.com
________________________________________
From: owner-baba-l@ballreich.net [mailto:owner-baba-l@ballreich.net] On
Behalf Of Harvey J. Karten
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 10:42 PM
To: baba-l@ballreich.net
Subject: [Baba-L] Baba/Panda/Tashiba and Tayana

Hi  Pam,
At risk of inflaming some owners, it might be worth quoting some of the
history of the Valiants, Babas and Tayanas.
 
Bob Perry apparently designed the Valiant prior to his drawing the Tayana 37
or the Baba 30, 35 or 40. The Tayana 37 was initially commissioned by the CT
company, but they chose to concentrate on building the CT41. The people at
Ta Yang acquired the plans from CT, and have been the only company that has
ever built this boat. However, for the first few years that it was being
sold, they marketed it as a CT-37, since the CT line had already established
a reputation in the Western Hemisphere. As their sales increased, they
marketed it under the name TaYana (from Ta-Yang, perhaps). But the boat has
always been made in only a single yard from a single set of molds. The
fundamental lines of the hull of the Tayana 37, Baba 30 and Baba 35  are
scaled versions of what seems to be the identical hull lines. Perry has
stated, however, that the Baba/Panda/Tashiba 40 has a different and faster
underwater profile. Comments from visitors to Khaoshiung, Taiwan, apparently
noted that many of the same joinery people work in both the Ta-Shing and
Ta-Yang yards.
 
Both yards are noted for excellence of construction, though the Ta-Shing
seems to have a bit better joinery, and finish. The design of the
chainplates on the Baba series have the apparent advantage that it is easier
to remove and replace the chainplates. However, both yards used similar
quality material in their chainplates, and owners of both series of boats
should carefully check and replace the chainplates and bolts. Another
serious deficiency shared by both series of boats is the marginal quality of
the planking used in the bowsprit. Both Baba and Tayana boats often have rot
in their bowsprit. The bowsprit of the Tayana 37 is a bit longer,
proportionately, than on the Baba series. This gives it the slightly higher
SA/D ratio, carrying a larger Yankee/Genoa. The cockpit on the Baba series
is bit more secure and snug than the early models of Tayana. The water and
fuel tanks are a problem on both series of boats.
 
The Capsize ratio of these four boats is nearly identical. The Motion
Comfort Index of the Tayana 37, Baba 35 and Tashiba/Panda/Baba 40 is also
about equal. The Baba 30 has about 25% less motion comfort index than the
others. The D/L is pretty similar on all four.
For details on the numbers, see Carl's Sail Calculator at:
http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
Perry obviously drew only slightly different minor features on most aspects
of these different boats.
 
The Tayana 37 has somewhat higher SA/D ratio, but this is easily equalized
by a visit to your sailmaker. Hull speed is pretty closely matched, varying
only slightly as a function of LWL.
Displacement is evenly spread out in keeping with different lengths of the
Baba 35, Tayana 37 and Tashiba 40.
 
The Tashiba/Panda 40 is blessed with a more spacious interior, somewhat
better quality ports, and slightly wider decks for better footing. Interior
layout is more comfortable, and the finishing work lovely. 
 
Both series of boats are blessed with proud and dedicated owners. When you
see them sailing, it is quite easy to mix them up, unless you are a devoted
student of the subtle differences. (Assuming you ignore the insignia on the
mainsail). It seems to take a "mother's eye" to spot the differences.
 
The Valiant, of course, has only been constructed in the U.S., though by two
different companies and at different locations. Despite the similarities of
the Valiant to the Baba and Tayana lines, there are some very marked
differences between the Valiants and the other Perry double enders of this
vintage. The Valiant is characterized by a large Brewer Bite between the
keel and the skeg bearing rudder. The Valiant has more bustle in the stern,
and thus more buoyancy. But it is said to have a finer entry, resulting is
some tendency to pound in chop. The Valiant has a significantly lower D/L
ratio than the Tayana 37 or the Baba 30, 35 or 40. The Valiant 40
established the concept of the "Racer/Cruiser" and is one of Perry's most
notable and popular of designs.

 
Perry's designs keep company with Crealock, Rhodes, Alberg, Gillmer, Mason,
and Brewer as solid, lovely, highly seaworthy boats with solid comfort and
safety in a seaway. The differences between these boats is of much less
significance than the quality of maintenance they have individually received
over the years.
 
The design has also been used (sometimes without royalty to Perry) by Hans
Christians, MaoTo, Young Sun, Union Polaris 36.
 
regards,
H. Karten
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: pamarno@comcast.net
To: baba-l@ballreich.net
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Baba-L] Baba purchase

Alan
Just one note before I go down to wash the Baba.
Did I mis speak about the lineage between the Baba and Tayana. Would Tashiba
be the mother mold for my little Baba? I had a Tayana T-37 MK11, named
GRACE, on my mind, as she is presently for sale by friends here in
Bellingham.(no brokers-please)
Regarding the opening ports: It was recommended, by the surveyor, that they
be removed,a check made for the condition of cabin reinforcements and
resealed. High moisture readings were detected on the sides of cabin both
port and starbd.
Pam Hooper
 

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Received on Sat Sep 9 07:49:15 2006