Thanks Harvey,

I'll nose around for places that I can get a hands-on look at the
hardware in question. "Bulletproof" was of course metaphorical,
since I doubt any of us could afford the DOD version. It may be that
the redundancy of having two separate independent units for each
steering station would make both economic and prudent sense,
especially if there's a substantial premium for a dual display unit.

Speaking of integration, Cantata has a robust Alpha 3000 autopilot,
with its crude but effective analog control. The compass heading
calibration on the control dial is largely fanciful. You just turn
the dial until you're heading where you want to go and, weird
magnetic anomalies and electronic burps aside, you continue in that
direction. I have no idea if the control portion could be updated to
GPS and integration with the nav software, but it's an attractive
idea. I'm very satisfied with the strength and power draw of the
mechanical portion of the system.

John

On Mar 1, 2007, at 10:35 PM, Harvey J. Karten wrote:

> Hi John,
> I don't know yet if the new Standard Horizon series will integrate
> a display at two locations. I have my system wired so that I can
> plug in my new Standard Horizon 180i chartplotter at either the
> helm or at the nav station. It can receive and send equally at
> either location. But I don't know if it can handle a second
> equally integrated chartplotter display at both places. This worked
> very well, perhaps, in part, because the 180i and an internal GPS
> antenna.
>
> I have heard from a very reliable friend that his new Raytheon
> system permits mounting two displays of the same data on a
> chartplotter at the nav station, and also at a satellite display in
> the cockpit. Either of them can control the chartplotter, zoom in/
> out, set waypointss, control the autopilot, etc. I have not yet
> seen this in operation, but it sounds ideal.
>
> These new systems are adequately waterproof for use in the cockpit,
> but I don't know if they are truly "bulletproof". I expect that
> things will obviously continue to improve, add more bells and
> whistles, better charts, etc. But they have definitely reached a
> level of performance and reliability that is most impressive.
> Hope this helps,
> regards,
> Harvey
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Gordon Hill"
> <jghill@hillfilm.com>
> To: <baba-l@ballreich.net>
> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 10:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Baba-L] AIS plotting
>
>
>> Harvey,
>>
>> Thanks for such a lucid explanation of the laptop/chartplotter
>> conundrum. I have been following this thread with avid interest
>> since my boat electronics are at that point of being back to
>> square one. Is it wise to get an integrated chartplotter/AIS/
>> radar/ depthsounder system? And if so, which manufacturers do you
>> like? On the computer side, I have used Windows for many years
>> and so I am now firmly in Mr. Jobs' camp. I was very interested
>> in the Mac Mini solution discussed in this thread.
>>
>> I should say that Cantata is a Panda 40 Pilothouse, so the ideal
>> solution would be a principal display at the inside steering
>> station and a satellite display in the cockpit. At present I
>> have a 14 year old Panasonic radar that functions just fine, two
>> handheld GPS units (one a chartplotter) and a desk full of paper
>> charts. I've been waiting for marine electronics to become more
>> fully integrated, low power, and bulletproof, and it seems that
>> moment has arrived.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> John Gordon Hill
>> Cantata
>> '82 Panda 40 PH
>>
>> On Mar 1, 2007, at 9:58 AM, Harvey J. Karten wrote:
>>
>>> I just received a copy of Beth Leonard's new edition of Voyager's
>>> Handbook in yesterday's mail. Her chapter on electronics,
>>> navigation, etc., useful and succinct.
>>> When is comes to fancy toys, she tends to sit somewhere in the
>>> middle between the Pardeys and the Dashews. She and her mate
>>> have been sailing the high latitudes (including the infamous
>>> Southern Ocean). She is tending to more and more enthusiasm for
>>> AIS when combined with a good chartplotter. She even feels that
>>> for much long term cruising, it is higher on the scale of
>>> importance than Radar. Radar is obviously of great help when
>>> close in to shore, helpful in weather spotting, small vessels,
>>> etc. But the small boat radar (e.g. 6" screen LCD) uses a lot
>>> more power, so many cruisers tend to either turn it off or keep
>>> it in standby mode.
>>>
>>> The drawback to AIS on the chartplotter is that the symbol
>>> representing an AIS "hit" is not easy to spot on a small 5" or
>>> 6" chartplotter, especially against the clutter of depths,
>>> buoys, etc. But the nice feature is that you can set an alarm
>>> for vessels at distance that you define ("CPA" - closest point
>>> of approach), and then it will inform you of Time to CPA (TCPA)
>>> based on reading your Lat/Long and that of the other vessel,
>>> your SOG and that of the other vessel, current course, etc, even
>>> when you are not paying attention to the chartplotter. Of
>>> course, if you have the money (and don't mind the increased
>>> demands on your batteries) you can now buy a 10" or 12"
>>> chartplotter with the same features for about $1,400, excellent
>>> daylight visibility, but more current draw, and more space in
>>> the cockpit.
>>>
>>> Obviously it would be best if radar, AIS, GPS, etc., were all
>>> integrated into a single unit, such as the laptop software. But
>>> a laptop still has the terrible vulnerability of having a device
>>> that is not really meant for a small boat.
>>> 1) It is not waterproof or even corrosion protected,
>>> 2) hard drives with very poor MTBF (mean time between failures,
>>> meaning that the probability of failure is very high in the
>>> marine situation), and
>>> 3) you are relying on a pissing contest for Operating System
>>> reliability between Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. (Yes, you can now
>>> run Windows O/S in native format on any new Mac - as well as the
>>> latest version of the Mac OS-X Leopard).
>>> 4) Laptops consume a lot more power than I like - something in
>>> excess of 60 to 80 watts, rely on use of an inverter or DC to DC
>>> converter, since none of them can run at 12 Volts. Figure that
>>> they use about 6 Amps per hour at 12 Volts. That is equal to 144
>>> AMPS out of your batteries every 24 hours. That's even more than
>>> your refrigerator.
>>> 5) Access: Then there is the bigger issue that since the laptop
>>> is usually down at the nav station, and you need info from the
>>> computer, you leave the cockpit "for just a second". But the
>>> second turns into many minutes, with nobody on lookout.
>>> 6) If you set your computer to go to sleep if unused for 10
>>> minutes in order to save power, there is always the delay before
>>> it comes back on - and the all too common experience that it
>>> decided to shut down, not just sleep, requiring a reboot - if
>>> you don't set all the options correctly. In addition, it now has
>>> to remind itself to query the GPS to get the Lat/Long, which
>>> kills another frustrating minute or two.
>>> 7) And one of the things that annoys me more than almost
>>> anything else, is that the damned *&@# software is often copy
>>> protected. If your computer has a crash, reinstalling all that
>>> stuff can takes hours, and the copy protection scheme often
>>> makes it difficult to carry a complete backup on a second laptop
>>> (a very expensive, labor intensive solution).
>>>
>>> In comparison,
>>> 1) your chartplotter is nearly completely waterproof and
>>> intended for use in the cockpit.
>>> 2) It uses memory cards, which are generally far more reliable
>>> than any hard drive.
>>> 3) The unit is designed for limited numbers of operations, thus
>>> reducing the complexity of the device and increasing the
>>> reliability of the unit. Chartplotters are also subject to
>>> failure, but much less so than laptops.
>>> 4) It uses something under 0.6 amps or 14.4 amps per 24 hours.
>>> The AIS uses even less. The next big consumer of electricity
>>> for navigation is the Radar (not sure of the numbers, but I
>>> think it uses about 1-3 amps in standby mode, and much higher in
>>> transmit mode.
>>> 5) Access is immediate and right at the steering station.
>>> Contemporary units even allow you to have a second unit down
>>> below linked to the main unit. Either one can be designated as
>>> Master vs. Slave. Because it is designed to operate in the
>>> cockpit, the modern color screens have excellent visibility even
>>> in bright sunlight.
>>> 6) It does not go to "sleep", with all those associated problems.
>>>
>>> When we are in cruising mode, and the motor is running, then I
>>> run the laptop down below, and leave and set the Power Meter to
>>> be constantly on. The reality of laptops for navigation is that
>>> it's a great idea if your laptop is in the pilothouse of your
>>> trawler, secured at the inside steering station, and constantly
>>> running with power from your twin 350 HP Cummins diesels. It
>>> sits in the shade, so the fact that it isn't truly daylight
>>> visible in sunshine isn't a problem.
>>>
>>> The computer solution is excellent for viewing your overall
>>> course, planning major changes in course that benefits from
>>> seeing a larger screen, etc. It is superb when planning the
>>> next major course change or the day's cruise. But it is
>>> ergonomically a bad choice for moment to moment piloting. It is
>>> very difficult to multitask when staring at a laptop in the
>>> isolation at the nav station. A chartplotter does a much better
>>> job, and even that carries the risk of "instrument hypnosis" -
>>> staring at the screen as your boat is heading for a clearly
>>> visible hazard. Recently when suddenly enshrouded in fog in a
>>> white-out, I could view our position on the cockpit chartplotter
>>> (though I also immediately turned on the radar, which is also
>>> rigged to be easily visible from the helm.).
>>>
>>> I have cruised with friends who are so computer focussed, that
>>> when he (the skipper) goes below to check something on the
>>> computer, like a magnetic robot, he decides to also check on his
>>> latest EMail, forgetting that he was originally worried about
>>> some navigation hazard. His wife often has to remind him that
>>> she still doesn't know the course and next waypoint distance.
>>>
>>> Solution: go with both a laptop and modern chartplotter.
>>> regards,
>>> Harvey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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Received on Fri Mar 2 10:34:25 2007